Brainstorming: Suggestions, Goals, and Methodology

As many of you know, and especially if you find yourself directed here, I am interested in finding a way to make it so our guild can successfully raid current content in Cataclysm. I know many of us all are more than a little frustrated that the only thing we've been able to tackle has been Argaloth in Baradin Hold. Additionally, I know the manner we've attempted to progress through this tier has burned a lot of people out and more than frayed a few nerves. As such, I want to take steps to make what I've called a Raid Taskforce and I want to toss my ideas, goals and the means to reach them, out there, get some feedback, and get this ball rolling. I am hoping that putting in some solid groundwork now will reward us all later on.

My Goals:

1. Fun. I want to create a raiding environment that allows us to actually enjoy what we are doing. I don't want us all to be getting overly stressed doing something that is ultimately a game. Additionally, I want to cull the rising tensions that our current raiding has created. No one wants to raid with people they don't respect, or feel are disrespectful. I want to be able to still love you guys both before, and after the raid. And not punch people in the face.

2. Time. I want to streamline our raiding so we don't have to sacrifice a huge chunk of our lives to do it. Ideally, I don't want to have to spend more than 2 hours a week doing 'farm' content, and no more than 4 doing progression. I don't want raiding to ever become a second job, and I don't want to burn people out.

3. Current End Game. I want to see Cho'gall and Nefarian when they still matter. I don't necessarily want to do heroic content, at least not yet, but I would love to be able to experience the endgame bosses when they are still endgame.

4. Commitment. I think we all want to be able to walk into a raid and know everyone is trying as hard as everyone else. This is not Icecrown Citadel and the 30% buff that allowed us to carry people back then is gone. We'd all probably take greater pride in what we'll accomplish if we all know we're putting in our 100%. As such, I have no intentions of bringing people who are under-performing horribly or obviously would rather jump off the Frozen Throne than actually kill the Lich King.

Suggestions:

So, how are we going to get what we want? Well, I am going to toss some ideas out there, and think out loud, in hopefully in a somewhat comprehensive manner.

When we do eventually decide on what day(s) we'll want to raid on, I was thinking that we'd raid for 1 hour, have a mandatory 10 minute break, then raid for the next 50min-60min. I don't think 5 minutes is enough time for people to do what they need to do, and 10 would at least let people eat dinner, walk around, get the blood pumping again and so on.

I want to start on time. I want it so if we schedule a raid for 7:00, everyone is inside the instance at 7:00 and we're pulling trash by 7:05. I am tired of seeing people show up to our raids, and no where near prepared. People have trashed armor. People are going afk 3 seconds in to eat dinner for 35 minutes. People showing up expecting to waste 10 more minutes of everyones time as they force Ayria to make 80 potions or elixirs or whatnot. I want to make sure people repair their armor and get consumables before the raid happens, not during.

I suppose the above thought can be further expanded into making sure everyone's gear is enchanted and gemmed up too. At this point, we shouldn't need best of the best kind of enchants/gems, we obviously are lacking in maelstrom crystals, hehe, but enough so everyone can perform at their peak.

Also, I want to make sure that we have the best gear we can possibly get out of heroics to make our raiding lives easier. If you're needing a specific item, let's run some heroics together to get the item, or a JP vendor equivalent. Actually, you know, when we're not raiding together, let's make an effort to run heroics together so we all get a good feel for everyone's play-style. I know some tanks kinda freak out when I do a Death Coil/Fear trick, but now, they expect it. Just a good way to get everyones play styles to mesh.

Also, I don't think it'd hurt if we made some basic rules, like when we're in a raid encounter, the only people allowed to talk are the raid leader and the assists. I love the friendly banter on the trash packs though, don't forget that . Personally, one of my pet peeves is everyone talking over everyone else over random crap, and then we wipe because no one heard the raid leader say to stack on someone, or to pop BL, or tranquility, or whatever. Or some random person who didn't do their homework spewing misinformation out into the raid and getting everyone confused. Hell, I remember recently in one of our last ICC runs, I called out for a dispel on Mulki because he was a goo, and we only had 2 healers, and everyone had just got decimated. And the response I got was "That's not dispellable" And as it turns out, he thought I was talking about the mortal strike debuff on the tanks, and not the magical polymorph goo thing that was on Mulki.

This one is more of a goal than a suggestion, but I also want us all to have faith and trust in each other. Speaking personally, I get a little bummed when I'm in a raid leader role, I call out for something important to happen (usually because otherwise we all die) and the immediately thought that triggers inside someones head is second guessing what I asked for. I suppose this is evolving into the suggestion of having a structured raid with clear communication. I don't think I'd want anything like a drill sergeant happening, but enough so we can still understand each other.

Let's also not be afraid to help each other out, or not be afraid to ask for help if we need it. We can all come together and try to find ways to solve some of the issues we'll face raiding whether it's trying to get a dps rotation right, tank survivability, or healer mana. I don't want us all to start becoming critical if someone tries to help us out either. We all have a vast amount of knowledge on a ton of class specs because we've played them all at one point or another, and I want the unified goal to be getting us to perform better as raid, and not make other people feel like crap because they don't know everything about their class. I guess this is more about bringing a positive attitude and outlook and raising each other up, than venting frustrations out on each other and breaking people down. We're going to be wiping since it's progression, we need as much positive attitude we can muster.

All right, well, I think that's all I've got inside my head right now. Please, respond with your goals and suggestions below. We'll keep this brainstorming session going, and hopefully start tackling content very very soon.

I really like this post Dy. You've covered a lot of stuff here that has crossed my mind a time or two. But I'll still say a few things.

I'm a old world raider, back when there was no second spec'. When you had to gather resist gear and just before the raid go get various resist buffs. It was a long tedious and drawn out process. Raiding is easier now at least in terms of what you need to bring with you.

This is my frustration the arriving on time and end up waiting for a long time for everyone else to be ready. I got into the habit back in vanilla of spending the week prior to a raid gathering what I would need, resist pots, mana and health pots. Etc..

So I would suggest sometime in the week prior to the raid. Gather the proper amount of materials needed to make the items you need. -Mail- the items to who ever makes them ahead of time so they can do them at their own convenience and you will be ready to go on time. It will help make your crafter friend happy they can now spend the time they need to get ready for a raid or if they are already busy.

I think this is easier then us trying to chase each other down in Org sometimes.

Haha, yeah. Or like the times where I want to get flasks made, I'm in Uldum, and Ayria is in Silvermoon City.

Id say fun is the most important. If only I could remember the name of my old guild in echo isles id give them mention. We raided alot in burning crusade but there was one thing, we focused on having fun, kicked out anyone who got pissed because of a wipe. That was not tolerated, heck we had instances where we would cause the wipe ourselves for shits n giggles , like the hunter missdirecting aggro to me when we would fight the prince boss, (usually when we had a misplacement with the infernals. )

Thing is we would all go for fun, we had wiped on bosses with 1% to kill and all brake out laughing on how fail we were. Basicly we all used vent, got to know eachother and became good friends. Nothing in game we to seriously to hurt that relationship.

If the game is frustrating you and that causes you to get pissed off then this game is not for you. Some people learn by others telling them how to do a boss, others learn from their mistakes. Some may take a few tries to get it right. The thing is, after a few good runs you get it and then the fights are much easier.

We must become a community, befriend eachother not go against eachother. No raid is successful unless its a tightknit guild. Most fail due to the fighting and emo because of a fight or how someones was treated because another got angry that he/she died.

Gold is 100 times much easer to make, repair bills are not all high. Get together, have fun, if you win or lose. Get up brush the dust off and keep going.

If your really frustrated on a run, ask for some time to relax, calm down, donno scream outside, vent your outrage on an object not other people. once your calm recommence the fight.

I would suggest Just like we take time to do raids, set a day where said raiders take some time to collect mats needed, prob an hour or 2 a day.

My character kannak is a herbalist and skinner. I can easly spend some time collecting herbs for guild flasks. If we are raiders we should set some time for this.

Also setting an event for it helps organize and people who did help feel they did their part. This was also somthing I did in my ole guild long ago.

I like the way alot of this sounds. I do have some suggestions of my own. First off, don't make the same people assistants, or even raid leaders every time, Just because they've done raid leading before. Just because everyone knows you, doesnt mean that they're best fit, or best knowledgable about said raid. I was in a raiding guild a few years back that would have different people raid lead almost every time, just for the fact that they knew more about the raid than the previous raid leader.

Now im not suggesting we completely just give it willy nilly, but if someone has done it, finished the fight off and knows all about it, then its better for them to raid lead then someone that we tell to do it just because they are the ususal.

I've also noticed that alot of times when people ask for help with heroics, or gear suggestions or such things, that people ignore them. Now im not saying im perfect or that I do every heroic with everyone. But we all need to work on stretching ourselfs and doing some stuff for the good of the guild!

Ontop of such things as formentioned, I would suggest a sort of loot system. I've seen plenty of occasions where someone got something that was slightly better, than someone getting it that would completely turn into a better player for the item. Just because someone has hotter dice, doesnt neccessaraly mean they deserve the item more. Now on the Con side of that system, it promotes some lazyness, by making people get to the minimum for raiding to go then stopping working, knowing there going to get the item if it drops due to gear upgrades. The way to counter this, is to look at how much they work for there gear, check what they have been trying to do, that sort of thing.

The system I see work with this is as, a piece of gear drops. Everyone that wants the item, will link the item it would replace to the Master Looter. The master looter takes it and goes over the items with the assistants, and the raid leader for the evening. They decide who they think will make the most out of the item, and assign it to the person. If they cant decide, they have the two or so people that they think are about equal in upgrades do a /roll.

These have just been my thoughts and suggestions O:!

My motto as far as looting goes something like "You help kill it, its something your spec uses, you're free to roll on it." Luck of the draw in most cases, however bittersweet it can sometimes be..*damn mag'hari chieftains staff..grumblegrumblegrumble* I do agree with the statement about setting aside some time in advance about gathering mats for raids, a day or so before the raid, or a few hours before the raid, but not 10 mins before.
As the progression gets harder as it undoubtedly will, we need to be a little less lax as far as attendance and concentration. Not to say I don't want a fun raid, far from it, and those that raided with us in wrath now that we promote fun raids, but it should be on content that we're comfortable with and not something so new to us that some mechanics are still unknown.
That being said, I want to treat BWD,ToFW, and BoT as we did Naxx back in wrath.. I want to run them so many times that the we all know the encounters by heart.. I know we'll get there, it'll just take some more "Raid Bonding" to get to that level!
Fat lootz for all! Huzzah
Side note: Im using some of these 3d smilies just cause they're FREAKIN AWESOME!

As far as getting raid materials and consumables go, the point I was making was not to show up to the raid and expect to have them made for you right then and there. It's not hard to spend 5 minutes in an AH, or have them made days before hand, or even 10 minutes after the raid has reached it's conclusion. Don't waste the raids time.

As far as loot distribution goes, as a 10 man focused group, they will eventually work themselves out. Until that point though, I think the best approach would be to use a Loot Council method. Since this is progression content for us, we need to make sure that the gear we do get goes to people that can make the most use from it. And to be honest, it's probably going to suck to be Dythok because so much gear that he can use as a DPS is going to go to the healers. It truly depends on the state of the raid itself. If healers are going OOM and they are playing their class properly, then we'll have to give them the spirit gear even if it's an upgrade for shadow priest, elemental shamans, or the boomkins. If an item has hit on it, then it'd better not be going to a healer. If a strength/stamina one handed weapons drops with hit and expertise and our tanks are heaving threat issues, it's going to have to go to the tank over the Single Minded Fury warrior. The only exceptions I would make for this is if the item in question is Best In Slot.

On the flip side of the coin, we need to maximize every piece of gear we get, and this means making sure that it's put in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. It's not smart to hand a caster dagger to someone who keeps on botching their rotation, or doesn't even realize they have one. Not going to give a shield to someone that doesn't know how to use Shield Wall or Guardian of Ancient Kings, etc. Not going to give the healer trinket to someone who goes OOM 45 seconds into the fight because they unjustifiably spam AoE heals to the exclusion of everything else. People need to resolve their own class issues and play optimally before they are raiding. Not after the raid has handed that person a ton of gear and simultaneously slowed down the raids progression down because for all realistic purposing, handing that person the gear might as well of made it so that gear never dropped in the first place. I experienced this first hand back in Wrath of the Lich King where I was in a guild that used DKP, and all of the token that dropped were bought by DPS. It crippled the progression because the tanks were then undergeared and weren't able to survive against the harder hitting content.

As far as Raid Leading goes, rotating who is raid leader on which boss and what fight is problematic on a number of levels. One, it slows things down. Then each fight every other person is having to tell themselves, okay, now I listen to Dick, not Bob, Bob did the last one. What about Harry? Oh, Harry is the next fight. Second, there is more to raid leading than knowing the fights. It's about recognizing the needs of the raid during the encounter and calling out for what needs to happen right then and there without question. You also need to be able to tell people that you like that they suck sometimes, and hoping that they are mature enough to realize that it's in the realm of constructive critisism and not insults. Also, you need to be able to create and modify rational strategy even if you know it means it's going to end in failure. I'll use the last attempt for Halfus Wyrmbreaker we used a couple weeks ago as an example. I called for doing the fight with 3 tanks knowing fully well that we would never reach the enrage timer. I did this for three reasons. One, the morale of the raid at that point was gutted, and they needed to see something that looked like progress. Two, it gave me an opportunity to see what in the raid need to be improved upon as far as survivability went. At that point, I knew fully well that the damage was too low, and with our class make up, we couldn't put the damage dealers where we needed them. The healers kept saying that the tanks were taking too much damage, the tanks kept saying that the mortal strike debuff was kicking their asses, and providing a third tank gave us a buffer to deal with the mortal strike debuff. Third, the raid as a whole needed to experience something beyond wiping in phase one. If I recall correctly, we actually downed one drake, it might of been two, before everyone started dying. It was progress, everyone felt better, and it pointed out the issues that were happening with the fight, both fight mechanics and human error.

As far as changing the raid assists, that's not a horrible idea and should probably change from fight to fight. Like tanks need to be able to communicate to each other where there is any fight with a tank swap like in Halfus Wyrmbreaker (when the slate dragon is up). And in a single tank fight like Magmaw, it's probably wiser to give healer assist to better co-ordinate their efforts and cooldown rotations during the burn phases.

Though as a raid leader, I do not want to have to micromanage everything either. I look at that role is more to make sure that the raid stays focused on the goal at hand, and to point out the 'need to know' information to people who otherwise would not notice it. I'm not going to tell tanks when to use their defensive cooldowns or healers with their mana regen tools. Part of that comes from having trust in your raid in that they know what they are doing. On the other hand, I would do things like call out for Ayria to run over to the healer ball and pop her Hymn. That makes sense to call out because as a dps, Aryia would be more focused on killing the boss/adds and her own survival than looking at the blue bar of peeps that are potentially not in her group. Another example would be telling the DPS to ignore an add (that would otherwise be killed normally because it explodes in 30 seconds) because the boss would die in 20 seconds.

I'm starting to the reach the point where I am rambling, so I will conclude my thoughts for now.

I didnt mean changing raid leaders every fight, but if a person knows about the raid in general more than another, then it would make sence.

One thing I recommend is using open rolls for items. Just set it to group loot, put the threshold on rare.

Loot council breeds drama, I know this from personal experience. Master loot does the same to a lesser extent, since it means you trust people enough to be part of a raid team, but you don't trust them not to ninja-loot.

Now that it is possible to trade soulbound items, mistakes are rectifiable. If someone ninja loots you are out one boss drop worth of loot, and you instantly learn a lot about that person's character: enough to gkick and move on with life.

You know. You do bring up a good point in that they did put in that 2 hour window for loot to be traded after it being acquired. It definitely allowed us to put in some leeway on looting, and it further lets people still give loots to people that need them if it turns out the said item wasn't good for them in the first place. And in a 10 man environment, most of the loot issues will melt away after a few weeks anyways. Or at least a few weeks where Magmaw doesn't bug out for a whole DPS phase.

Also keep in mind that in a 10 man environment, raid members are often much more friendly with each other: it is a more personal experience. I have been in 25 and 40 man raids, and it is just a sea of faces. You'll have 5-8 people you know reasonably well for a video game, and the rest are just sort of "there."

Think about 10 man raiding this way. It's like being on the A-Team. A small force of crack commandos. If you're a jerk, Mr. T will punch your lights out.

Anyway, I have given up my fair share of loot to more deserving raid members in 10 mans, and had others do the same for me. When you are close to everyone in the raid, the value of the team means more to each individual.